[Daily Doodle] + Yuletide musings + Warnings musings + Sexting

[justira]

Daily Doodle: Random generic skinny chick. Something wrong with her neck/shoulders. Head largish and some (prolly not all) proportion weirdness on purpose -- a little cartoony. I tried on purpose to do with without drawing guidelines underneath like I usually do (outline of head/skull with bisecting lines horizontally and vertically); this started with her eyes and worked outward
Time: 5-10 mins, wasn't counting




Yuletide's "Umbrella Fandoms" Policy

So I was putzing around the Yuletide page when I saw that they no longer allowed any Final Fantasy or a number of other "umbrella" canons, as they put it. bottle_of_shine was pretty disappointed when I told her, and I've been trying to come up with an analogy to the situation for a while. I think I've found one that illustrates some of the difficulties.

Take a weekly (or monthly) anthology such as Shounen Jump. Shounen Jump serializes twenty-plus series right now, including mega-popular series like Bleach and Naruto, some medium-popular ones, and quite a number I have never even heard of. While all the manga are individual and different, drawn by different mangaka, they have a number of things in common -- like target audience (it's Shounen Jump, after all, meaning targeted to younger males) and various genre similarities. Readers of one Shounen Jump manga have pretty decent odds of also reading another SJ manga -- because they read straight from the anthologies and so read things that come packaged together, or because they're into the genre, or because of SJ branding, or because the manga published in SJ are similar enough that several of them suit one reader's taste. Very like FF and other macrofandoms.

I think Yuletide kicking out macrofandoms like X-Men, Doctor Who, Final Fantasy, etc. is a little like if they decided to kick out all manga published in one such anthology. The... confusion, I guess I'd call it, comes from there being one name under which all these titles are released. But let's take FF as an example, since I'm familiar with it. Each entry in the series shares certain commonalities with the rest, from naming conventions to story structure. Yet they were created by a number of different creative teams operating under the FF aegis; the series has undergone drastic changes; the series is branching out into different territories (see the Tactics games, CC games). And because of these differences, fans of one set of FFs aren't necessarily into the rest. I know a lot of peopkle stick to the earlier games, and those fandoms are Yuletide-small (individually for sure, maybe even together). Some people just got into the series, or only like the newer games, or stick with the Tactics set.

Trust me, after doing ff_exchange gifter/giftee matching with the fellow mods this past weekend, I've seen a fair sample of fandom distribution among the FFs, and it is far, far from monolithic.

The same goes for comic book fandoms that I know of for sure, since each sub-series of a macroseries has a different creative team, and a lot of people will love one line, like Birds of Prey and abhor the rest. This manga anthology thing isn't a perfect analogy, of course -- I know the macrofandoms mentioned are a little more cohesive than that, but I hope it illustrates some of the problems I have with this policy-- and not just at Yuletide, but every other place that treats such fandoms as monolithic.



Posting Warnings on Fanworks

There's been a bit of debate about this. I'm honestly not seeing the problem very well. I understand not wanting to spoil your own story (trust me, I understand, I have serious fic disclosure issues), I have no idea how one could place that concern above other people's mental health. I'm thinking specifically of warning for rape, sexual violence, and/or consent issues. You'd think it does not need to be said that rape and sexual violence are serious issue, and if you've been a victim of such, it's not something you just get over, but apparently it does?

The arguments I've seen going "if we start warning for rape soon we will be warning for kittens, blue things, and use or left pinkie toe!" don't fly with me. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy to begin with, but it's so seriously out of place here. Look, rape triggers are a very well-known problem, and though the internet is a big bad scary place, I think it is reasonable of rape survivors to expect a certain amount of courtesy -- because rape is such a widespread problem and triggers are such a well-known thing. People with more exotic triggers, I could see arguments about them being responsible for their own internets-safety holding water. If you know you have a strange or unusual trigger, it will probably be a fact of your life that you will just have to watch your step. I don't think it's particularly fair or awesome, but it's also not fair to ask the entire world to shield you. Your friends, sure, ask them to slap those warnings on if they know it's got your trigger in. But we're back at how common a problem rape is -- it's not an unusual or exotic trigger at all. The slippery slope "soon we'll warn for everything!" argument misses the fundamental nature and place of rape in our society.

I am not sure what writers who won't warn can expect people with triggers to do. Have friends vet every fic they read? Go ahead, you try it. Stop reading and click the back button? Sure, but by the time it becomes obvious what's going on a lot of damage is generally already done. Not read fic at all? Do you really want that, guys?

I have a modicum of sympathy for these writers, because dubcon and violence happen to be some of my kinks -- I'm fascinated by completely screwed up dynamics and love writing them. But that's about as far as my sympathy goes. If you're worried about the integrity of your story being spoiled, use a catch-all, very general message on your stories. People with serious trigger issues, being smart, thinking human beings just like you, can usually take the hint. The truth is, if you're writing about rape, violent sex, or consent issues -- most people will want to know in advance what they're getting into, even if it's not because of triggers -- some people look for rape or dubcon fic (the latter one, that would be me), and some people just plain don't enjoy it. Not warning will hurt your reputation as a writer -- either by losing kinky readers who would otherwise be looking for your stuff specifically, or by alienating people who'd prefer not to read rape fic for one reason or another.

But if none of that bothers or interests you, I'm going to repeat: the choice is not spoiling a fanfic on the internets vs. the mental health of someone who has undergone a horrific event. Really guys? Really?



Sexting and Teen Privacy

I heard a piece on the news radio today about "sexting", and have I mentioned that that is one of the stupider neologisms to come out of this decade? But what really bothered me is that the piece was clearly supporting parents stalking their teens' myspace accounts and monitoring their phone use -- basically keeping an eagle eye on their sex lives to make sure there weren't any shenanigans.

Sexting has been in the news a lot recently and I cannot stand it, from the sex-phobic attitude to the endless cases of a girl daring to take pictures of her own naked body and entrust them to her sexual partner and then being publicly shamed for it. A lot of people say parents should talk to their teens about how privacy works these days (hint: not very well), and warn them about keeping their sex lives private and leaving no evidence, as it were. And it's true, there are serious privacy concerns these days, and information your entrust to one person or place pretty much never stays only there.

But that's missing the bigger issues. In my view, there are two of them.
(1) Teens have sex. Get over it and help them do it right.
ETA: shanaqui points out that teen boys suffer, too, when they're brought up on child porn charges for shit like this. I kind of filed that under (1) in my head, but I agree it's worth pointing out as also completely bonkers.
(2) Women own their bodies and can do whatever the hell they want with them. A woman being proud of her body or displaying it to her partner is not a shameful act.
It's the second one that people seem to have more trouble with, because it's always these pictures of girls getting out and then their reputations are ruined for life, pretty much. And in the current social climate -- sad but trufax! -- that kind of thing really does hit your rep pretty hard. So sure, be really careful when you do it. But you shouldn't need to be so worried about -- gasp! -- it being known that you had sex ever. So much stigma with these pictures! I'm waiting for when such a leak of nudie pics brings something along the lines of "Oh whoops, that is probably a little embarrassing, I don't think she meant for us to see those awesome boobies" instead of "Haha, look at that slut! She's not fit for any public position ever!" Especially when the boyfriend or ex leaks these I find it infuriating when the girl is blamed for it -- she shouldn't have taken pictures of herself/let him take pics of her! The girl is socially crippled, the boy is charged with child porn, and pretty much everyone loses. Awesome.

Comments

[shanaqui]

Re: sexting:
The most ridiculous bit, as far as I can see, is when these girls' partners get a criminal record for owning pictures of their girlfriend's naked body, because it's child porn.

[justira.livejournal.com]

I think I kind of mentally subsumed that under "Teens have sex, get over it". But I agree it is crazy ridiculous. I do think that these guys need to be punished in some way when they share such pictures without the girl's consent -- that is pretty skeazy. But there's been a rash of teen boys (maybe slightly older teen boys, like 17-19 range) being charged with statutory rape and child porn charges because they gaaasssp had sex with a 16-year-old. The sex phobia in this society, I really do not get it.

[lassarina]

1) Word re: FF. You express things so well, I am mildly envious. I was so upset this year when they banned older FFs; I badly wanted to offer/get FF4.

2) I love you. Please accept this box of internets. I do not understand this set-up where someone else's mental health is less important than not spoiling a freaking fic omg. (In fact, I went just today to edit the profiles on my fic journals to explicitly note my warning policy, by which I mean anything sexual of any kind ever, spoilers, violence, and language are always warned for but I don't warn for character death.)

3) SEXTING. It makes me FROTH. This is what you get when you have a culture that glorifies sex (using it to sell everything) and shames it at the same time, particularly for women. And then people are SURPRISED when this stuff happens! I! I mean, it's an old joke that the Internet is for porn/rule 34, but seriously, how did it take UNTIL NOW for this to hit mainstream consciousness? I have known for OVER A DECADE that you don't put compromising photos of yourself online, you take care when expressing your actual physical location, nothing on the Internet is every truly private, etc. But even if I didn't and even if miraculously I am the only person on the entire Internet who actually knows these things, shaming these teenagers and RUINING THEIR LIVES is...is....it's so counterproductive! Charging people with child porn? Really? REALLY? They're charging the girls with this also!

I don't know about you, but I'm certain that there are at least a few photos somewhere of me in my underthings at a sleepover when I was thirteen. Did my friends and I intend to distribute these photos for the lecherous use of God-knows-who? Absolutely not. We were at a sleepover and we took pictures of ourselves so we'd remember the fun time. Whether we were swathed head to toe in muumuus [I'm picking on them as a religiously-neutral swathing garment] or dancing around in lace lingerie is so very not the point. I think it's ridiculous and absurd to make a CRIME out of young people being, well, young! I think that our youth in general needs some serious education in the matter of CONSEQUENCES, but this is not the way to do it. Making someone a convicted felon and registered sex offender at the age of 17 for possessing/distributing pictures of his girlfriend is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[justira.livejournal.com]

Haha, thanks. I am kind of a big fan of analogies? Is that why I like semiotics so much? I like analogies because once you hit one, both its strengths and its weaknesses usually give you insight into whatever you're analyzing. Fun times =D

For warnings, I tend to want to warn for sex, violence, anything on the dubcon-noncon spectrum, and incest -- these are all things that interest me, but I realize other people want wanna, you know, read what they're comfortable with?

Now character death! For me, that one's kind of dependent on the canon. If people die all the time in canon, if it's a mature canon, I tend to think you shouldn't/don't have to warn for character death. That is a spoiler worth preserving, I think. However! If the canon is pretty kosher and people aren't dropping like flies, I think character death warnings would be very appropriate, because it would be a departure from canon expectations, you know?

Now! SEXTING. There is just. SO MUCH FAIL EVERYWHERE. I'm disappointed in everyone from the judges to the media to the parents to the teens to OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY. I especially can't stand the media coverage on this, because it's always with a tone of teenagers doing something so dirty. (Do you people not remember what it was like to be a teen? Do you guys have sex now that you're grown-up, even??) And the message they send to parents seem to be so off to me: it's less about expressing teen sexuality safely and sensibly and more about denying, again, that teens are people too -- not sacks of hormones with no sense or feelings >(

These child porn charges are also something I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. Child pornography/molestation is SERIOUS BUSINESS, guys! I think it kind of devalues the use of sex offender registries and the like when you start filling them with teens exploring their own sexualities and those of their peers? As far as I can tell, it helps NO ONE when child porn gets brought into this sexting nonsense -- it compromises the sex offender registry systems, it ruins the lives of the teens, and it doesn't really make your children safer? I guess these teens will think twice about distributing sexy pictures ever again, but I think the punishment is a leetle disproportionate maybe? Excellent move, everyone!

I never really had this problem, either with pics (notoriously camera-shy) or with my parents' attitude. My parents butted out of my sex life, though they knew I had one (it does not take a genius to figure out what happened when that girl I spent like all my time with and I disappeared into my room). In fact, my mom thought my having a sex life was lolarious. I think I might have almost preferred a more, uh, conventional attitude >.>

[lassarina]

Well, and plus, these kids are under 18! Why are we charging them with life-destroying adult charges?! What the HELL.

Haha, I came home from summer camp once (I was 17) and was complaining about how the boy I'd been snogging there hadn't emailed me. My mom goes "Well, he's just a big dick. Or a little one. I guess you'd know better than I would." I gaped, blushed, and fled the room immediately. XD XD

(also funny true fact: I have accidentally taught my mom tips and tricks for oral with offhand comments. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.)

Character Death: You know, usually at least one person dies in FF games, particularly the older ones. I feel like anyone reading FF4 fic does not get a character death warning, since at least half the cast gets comic-book-death'd at some point in the game! Starting with Kain in the Village of Mist, half an hour in!

[justira.livejournal.com]

I KNOWWWWWWW. In some cases, I agree totally with minors being charged as adults -- but this is generally for cases, of, I don't know: MURDER maybe? And even then, I feel like the kid needs to be pretty close to 18 -- if you kill someone on purpose when you are 13 you do not need a jail (Trufax: I hate jails! They are more destructive than helpful!), you need doctors.

But charging minors with CHILD PORN for HAVING SEX WITH THEIR PEERS??

Yeah, there are so many worlds of fail in and around this sexting debate! Dear World: I do not udnerstand. PS: You fail. Hearts, Ira.

Okay, so. In Russian, which is what my mom and I speak to each other, there is a word for "to lick all over": облизывать (I think that is how it's spelled, but it's pretty colloquial/constructed using handy Russian aspect markers, so most dictionaries would not have it). I bet you can see where this is going. But my mom wanted me and Lindsey to come and help her do some chore or errand, and I had my bedroom window open. She called me from outside and YELLED UP (in Russian, thank god): "When you guys are done licking each other all over can you come help me?"

THANKS MOM.

Character death: yeah uh, if you have played FFIV and you can't handle character death in fic I am not sure you played the right game. Maybe you mistook it for this one (http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Moon-DS-Cute-Nintendo/dp/B00109KMRQ)? With some of the fluffier canons I could understand it, like maybe IX. On the surface that game is disturbingly wholesome, but it kind of has a dark seething underbelly if you try even a little to look for it.

You know what, I think people die in the very first scene in IV? Am I remembering this right? When Cecil and co. invade Mysidia and steal their crystal and cut down those priests? Yeah that would be a hint guys!

[lassarina]

*chokes, dies, laughs, chokes some more* Oh, man. That. The yelling in Russian? Priceless. I'm sure you wanted to die of embarrassment but that just kills me. XD

They do! Cecil is all like GIMME YOUR CRYSTAL and the Mysidians are like HELL NO and then Cecil says STABBITY! and takes the Crystal anyway. (sister_coyote has been doing some hilarious reaction shots as she plays her way through FF4DS, and I am really enjoying seeing the game through new eyes.)

FF9 has some horribly disturbing elements if you look at it at all, I agree. Most of the later-series FFs are a lot darker than you think they are at first glance - people seem convinced FF8 is all about happy high school AU. Um, guys? child soldiers sent out to kill their mother figure. That's all I have to say to THAT.

[shuraiya.livejournal.com]

1) I like the drawing! She's sassy! :3

2) EXCUSE ME WHAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN NARUTO OR BLEACH

OH WAIT THAT'S RIGHT, ONE PIECE

3) I can see how warnings could go overboard; I think the issue is, people are so desensitized to sensitive issues these days that they don't even realize what can be triggering. And ESPECIALLY with kinks or certain outlying interests, someone could be REALLY into dub-con or what have you, and not even realize it might freak someone out. I think people SHOULD post warnings. If it's a spoiler, so be it. :|

4) I was talking to this about my mom a week or two ago, and I think I might repeat myself-- if our parents, or our grandparents, or our great-grandparents had cell phones with cameras as kids, they would have done the same thing. This isn't a phenomenon of the 00's. It's completely sensationalized because we are STILL caught up in a society that is obsessed with sex while trying to quell it. It's so ridiculous. I heard on the radio about some ... 15 year old girls getting arrested for pedaling child porn. Because they were taking pictures of themselves and sending them to their little boyfriends. Girls are consistently blamed for 'wrongdoing', as though they have no mental capacity nor reason. It's fucking sickening.

You know what I think is a lot worse than sending a picture of yourself to your high school boyfriend? Letting him beat you and taking pictures to post online so you can be like Rihanna and Chris Rock. I wish I was making this shit up.

[justira.livejournal.com]

2) XDDDD I could have sworn I put OP there but APPARENTLY NOT. I'm way out of touch with what fandom is up to these days -- is OP really more popular or do we just love it extra hard? XD

3) See, even that attitude -- the desensitized thing -- I don't really understand that either. It strikes me as pretty self-centered, if you forget that not everyone else is like you. Most of the kinky folk I know seem to realize that probably not everyone is into what they're into! My main point though really, is about warning for rape specifically, and if someone is so out of touch with anything outside themselves that they don't know how big an issue rape is, I want to know under what rock they've been hiding -- or which awesome imaginary world they inhabit, because I would like to be over there with the no rapings, please! Like I said, for other triggers I'm not really sure what a good protocol is, but for something so pervasive and serious? This should not be hard, guys =|

I have absolutely no intention of stigmatizing kinks, of course -- I am all for kinks! And I know a lot of people have outright rape fantasies, and that is cool too as long as you play it safely. I'm just sayin', just because you're (General Yu) kinky doesn't mean everyone else is, and some people have suffered serious trauma from your kinks. Please to be considerate citizen of the internets? (Pardon me, I am still ranting -- none of this is directed at you of course.)

4) GOD I KNOW why is it that when people hit 30 they forget they were EVER TEENAGERS THEMSELVES? With the way our society has constructed adolescence, teens are pretty much socially wired to push boundaries and explore their sexualities -- it's exactly what we expect teens to do, in every sense of the word. And then we get offended! And we use sex to sell everything from cars to yogurt to insurance, and then we get offended when teens try to figure out what the fuss is about! Seriously guys, seriously? I also made the point in my comment upstairs that these child porn charges are supremely unhelpful, as they devalue the more valuable work and purposes behind charges and punishments for real child porn. This shun/worship thing re: sex in American society seriously weirds me out. And creeps me out. And upsets me. And basically get a new attitude please, America ._.

Man, that last bit is really really sad =(

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

First I want to say that I totally agree with you on the sexting issue.

Now, about warnings. I probably shouldn't comment at all, because I'm on vacation with really sporadic internet access, so I can't get into a deep discussion right now, but I feel really strongly about this. So I apologize in advance if I am slow to respond.

From my point of view, the thoughtful anti-warning position isn't about spoilers. It's about the potential chilling effects of warnings on freedom of expression. This is about other people telling me what I can and cannot do in my own personal writing space. Of course, I'm not talking about communities that require warnings -- if a community owner decides they want to maintain safe space, that is totally their right, and I will cheer on their efforts. But all of fandom cannot be a safe space. It's simply not possible.

I also disagree regarding the slippery slope. I don't see people citing slippery slope as a theoretical argument -- they're talking about fandom history. The haircut wars (http://carolyn-claire.livejournal.com/201844.html?format=light) really did happen. In theory, I might not take issue with requesting warnings across all of fandom for the "major" triggers, but I have yet to see any two posts that come to complete agreement as to what those triggers even are. Death? BDSM? Incest? Self-harm? I have seen people arguing for and against all of those as "obvious" major triggers. Fandom as a community is never going to agree on such a list.

That said, I do (or would, if I ever wrote about it) warn for rape or assault or any other consent issue, and I have warned for BDSM and suicide in the past. But that is my choice. And I am really bothered by the idea that anyone would try to impose otherwise.

[justira.livejournal.com]

Okay, I think the first thing I should say is that I fucked up! After rereading what I said, I realized that I framed my response to this warnings business in a totally not-awesome way. Excellent way to start discussions!

I'm sorry it took me a little while to respond, but the truth is I've been having trouble coming up with a good response? Disclaimer, disclaimer: I think your response is kind of awesome? I'm just having trouble coming up with anything as good to say, because you helped me realize I went about this the wrong way, and what to say to that besides "whoops, that was kind of fail!"

A bit of background! I have spent the past year researching rape and writing about it for school. So I have pretty much been immersed in what a huge and horrible issue this is. I am probably definitely a little touchy about it now, especially since a lot of my research focused on how shittily a lot of women are treated after they get raped, specifically by the legal system. So, apparently I get kind of worked up about how people treat rape victims.

This is most likely why I latched onto this warnings thing.

The trouble is, I'm not sure what to think now -- because I still think that because of the huge role of rape and sexual violence in our society, it's something that deserves a warning.

And yet I can't really countenance people telling others what to do in their personal spaces. Which I totally just did! I didn't think it through, I didn't mean to, but that is totally how it came out. It came out even worse than that, and this is the part I really screwed up: it came out as "if you warn you're nice and if you don't you're mean on purpose". This is an awesome way to shut down discussion! (Hint to self: is that why I'm having such a hard time participating in it right now? A+)

So now I am not sure what to think. I'm trying to come up with a compromise position, because I believe both points (rape is serious and warnable; don't tell people what to do in their space). I'm not sure how well it's working. The best I have right now is: if you don't warn, say that somewhere so readers know to be careful.

But honestly, here's the deal. I framed this in an "us-or-them" way; I did not research, educate myself on, or acquaint myself with the opposing position well enough; I didn't think things through; I took out my personal issues and let them fly like a pair of knickers in the wind. So. I'd really-honestly like to invite you to keep talking to me about it, if you don't mind? You sound like you would be an interesting person to talk to on this issue =)

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

I would really love to keep talking through this issue. I've been *really really* hesitant to say much in a public forum, because so many people frame it as a "there is right and wrong with nothing in between" and on top of that (or perhaps the former is a result of the fact that) this is a very deeply personal and emotional issue for a lot of people. But I appreciate this thoughtful response very much, and I would be happy to continue this conversation! Just to let you know, though, I'm still on vacation until Tuesday, so my responses will still be slow for awhile.

I think I have a somewhat different position from some people on this topic because I am pretty much a free speech absolutist. For me, here are very, very few circumstances where the possible harm from someone's expression outweighs that person's right to express themselves. This is why I am not generally in favor of hate speech laws, for example. As I watched this discussion unfold last week (disclaimer: I haven't really looked at it since Wednesday, so it may have moved in a different direction by now), it reminded me of nothing so much as the feminist debate over pornography. On one side (roughly speaking), you have those who believe that if even one person is protected from harm, it's worth curtailing expression; on the other, you have people who have concerns about the larger costs to the community when making that trade-off. Of course you can't compare the situations exactly, but I see the parallels. If nothing else, it's another subject that has very much developed into an "us and them" situation, to what I think is everyone's detriment. I agree that middle ground can definitely be found, especially if we're willing to talk without demonizing or belittling anyone (behavior I have definitely seen on both sides, in both debates). So I hope that we can continue to talk and see what ideas we come up with. :)

[justira.livejournal.com]

Since the time I responded to your comment, I've been trying to think of any helpful comparisons or analogies (perhaps we have noticed I like analogies). The debate around hate speech sounds like a good one -- and this is actually something I studied in school. We read positions both in favour and in opposition to limiting speech. The basic argument for limiting hate speech -- specifically racist speech -- was predicated on the idea that racist speech brings carries with it the entire history of race relations in America, and that is what does the real harm. In this position, hate speech is not "just words", and so can be treated differently from other words.

And in favour of free speech-- we read John Stuart Mill's On Liberty, which I enjoyed and if you haven't read it you might find it worth your while. It's on Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=S1dB8cECoNQC&dq=john+stuart+Mill+on+liberty+free+speech&source=gbs_navlinks_s).

The idea of hate speech being more than words and carrying an entire relational history with it -- this is what the warnings debate reminds me of in the hate speech context. Also similar, like you said, in weighing costs to the community against costs to liberty.

The funny thing is-- when I'm thinking more rationally, I count costs to liberty AS costs to the community. This is the problem I had with the mindset of the previous administration re: invasions of privacy and torture. In theory, that administration invaded our privacy, limited our rights, and tortured people in order to protect us and the ideals of this country. But that never made sense to me, because once we begin doing those things, we are no longer ourselves -- we are some other society in which these things are okay. In that debate, I always believed that preserving such hard-won rights was worth it, even though I was well aware it might cost lives.

So why did I get my knickers in a knot this time?

I thought of another analogy that I think helps me understand my response, and might be helpful for further discussion: the abortion debate.

Let's back up a bit. After some thought and closer inspection of my feelings here, I came up with perhaps a more accurate description of how I feel. Me, I would warn for rape. I think others should warn for rape, too. But I can't butt into their choices and in any way try to make them warn for rape.

The two issues are of course vastly different, but I realized my feelings are similar. Me, I believe in a woman's right to choose. In some set of circumstances, I might choose to have an abortion and someone else might not. And that's both our rights. I might disapprove of her decision (maybe she's too young, doesn't have resources to raise the child, the child is a product of a rape, whatever), but it's her decision, not mine, and I would never try to force her one way or another.

So this is where I feel similarly -- I might have my own opinions on warnings, strong ones, and I can have a heyday with them on my own stories. But I would be crossing a line I can't agree with if I tried to make everyone else follow my standards. And still in the free speech vein-- this leaves me free to make a vociferous asshat of myself when I declare it's mean to not warn.

I don't think I'm done thinking about this, but these are just some thoughts that occurred to me in the meanwhile.

[owlmoose.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say that I'm definitely still thinking about all this, but traveling has kept me too busy/tired/distracted to write the response it deserves. But I'm home now, so with luck I should get to it tonight or tomorrow.

Although it doesn't directly respond to any of the points you raise above, I did want to share a thought I had while chatting with someone the other day. Maybe the best compromise position for all of the various issues around labeling fanfic is for everyone to learn how to write real summaries. One of the common themes in the ongoing debate about warnings is that we don't get warnings as such in the "real world" -- for movies, TV shows, books, etc. Because traditional media tends to come with more detailed summaries of their content: movie trailers, the back of the book, blurbs in TV Guide, and so forth. Would more in-depth summaries provide people with triggers enough information to avoid stories that might be problematic for them? It might be a start, anyway.

[justira.livejournal.com]

Heyyyy, good to hear you're still up for it! I have been realizing that I put my foot in an issue that is way bigger than I thought, so there is still a lot of thinking I haven't finished.

Nay mentioned the thing about summaries to me, too. I think it would definitely help if fandom learned to write summaries, both for the triggers/warnings issue and, uh, everything else.

But I do have a couple of points about this real-world analogy. One is fairly minor: movies, at least, and pretty much everything on TV, does come with a rating at least, and often these are broken down into justifications-- "sexual situations", "violence", "language", etc.

The second point is more important I think. With all real-world media comes marketing. Marketing is one of the key cues we have to determine what's appropriate for which people. You can see how basic an assumption this is anytime it's violated-- look at any of the debates about media being marketed "inappropriately" to younger people when it's totes adults only, jeez, you can't let kids think it's for them!

Anyway. In the real world, marketing provides a huge amount of information -- much of it only tacitly or even subconsciously understood -- about who that media is appropriate for. This is in additional to professionally written summaries and other cues like packaging/covers and location in a store/which channel it's on (all of the latter could, in my opinion, also be subsumed under marketing).

I guess a fandom equivalent would be communities for yaoi fic? Maybe. It's a somewhat loose analogy. Outside those comms, I know some people feel the need to warn for the gay, but inside those communities, which are I guess "marketed" as explicitly FOR the gay, it's assumed that if you're there, gay is what you came to get.

Anyway, like I said -- I do think better summaries would help! But real-world media have a lot more going on than that, and I'm not sure how to break that down and see if any of it is applicable to fandom or other online communities.