Entry tags:
Time to discuss racism and humour! aka how about them mildly infamous icons?
Hey, it's time to stop drawing wolf butts and variously gendered people touching each other and time to have another tl;dr chat!
Today's topic is more like a topic-train. It looks like this: Racism in fantasy works --> stereotypes in jokes --> kyriarchy and humour --> are we allowed to be funny ever?
(The answer is of course: No! No humour allowed! What did you think this was, real life or something?)
To make clear whither and whence this post: I have recently seen some icons of Sazh (dark-skinned character from Final Fantasy XIII) that I found objectionable, as did![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
heebee [here] and ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
renay [here]. The icons can be seen below this cut — I did say they are uncomfortably racist, right?:
( The Icons in Question )
I prefer not to name the iconmaker or link to their work, though many folks might recognize hir anyway. Rather, I want to take part in a general fandom discussion of this topic, rather than call out and dogpile a single iconmaker. I'm attempting to engage the iconmaker, not neglecting that part, but I hope to minimize the extent to which zie feels attacked in hir own space. And while I can't really tell anyone what to do, I do ask that please, no one go over there and call hir racist. That is not productive. (If that seemed self-contradictory — hey, this person did something racist and by the way don't tell hir zie's racist — please listen while the ever-awesome Jay Smooth of Ill Doctrine explains.)
If you are confused as to why these icons might be offensive, I recommend taking a look at the collection at the Authentic History Center, as well as some rebuttals of common responses to this imagery.
That said, let's try to get this party started!
Race and Racism in Fantasy Worlds
First up, a common cry: But these are fantasy worlds, they don't have our history of race and race relations there, they might not even have an idea of race! Fantasy depictions — or fanworks based on fantasy depictions — can't be racist!
The simple answer: Okay, I will grant that within a canonical world, by canonical standards, something we might take as racist/sexist/otherwise offensive is not taken as such within the context of that world.
But you know who isn't in the context of that world? You and me, buddy. And the creators of the canon. And pretty much all the consumers of that canon. So while the characters embedded in that world might not be engaging in racism by the rules of their own world, we do not have that excuse.
We who create and consume media, we live in this world, with all its sorry and glorious history. It's possible to go in circles forever around the subject of fantasy depictions and their effect on real-world issues. I would prefer not to go there; I would get dizzy. I hope we can at least agree on this: whatever the creators' intentions and whatever the rules of the fantasy world, we, because we live in our world, are justified in viewing and analyzing the fantasy through the lens of our real-world experience — the experience through which it is created and consumed.
Using Stereotypes in Jokes / Kyriarchy and Humour
Okay, so can we at least poke fun at racist stereotypes and make other plays off prejudice in an ironic way using those fantasy characters (who by the way are imaginary and can't be hurt)?
Yes and no.
The relationship between humour and kyriarchy is... pretty complicated. It's quite easy to fall into a trap here: attempt, with the best intentions, to deride things worthy of derision, and yet in making the joke end up perpetuating those same ills.
Here's the thing — when you make a joke using a stereotype, you're still using that stereotype.
( My complete lack of humour continues! )
( Are We Allowed to be Funny EVER omg )
I know a lot of people try to make lists of acceptable and off-limits topics for humour. I think that's a pretty fraught discussion. Liss made a pretty neat post on off-limits humour, breaking down why certain subjects are more off-limits than others. But she also makes the point that no topic is really off-limits: it's all about context. It's about your audience. It's about thinking hard about how your humour will be received, and by whom. And if necessary, it's about summoning up the creativity to make new jokes, jokes that do not perpetuate the very things we try to fight.
And back we are in a grey area, context context context. But I hope we at least have some more things to think about, and some tools to discuss this disturbing trend in fandom. It's not just a few Sazh icons — it's everywhere, in jokes about female characters, older characters, characters of colour... It's quite saddening. I'd love to discuss how this problem relates to fandom in general, or Final Fantasy fandom in particular, since we have such a fun history (see: Barrret). It's a big issue, with too little tl;dr. Open the deer pens, prepare the aquamarine paint cans! Or, you know, just drop a word or two.
A note on where to comment: I'm posting this from DW to LJ, so it's available on both services. However, I would prefer if people commented in the LJ copy, to make it easier for me to keep track of the discussion. I'm keeping commenting open on both sites, so this is just a request =)
Today's topic is more like a topic-train. It looks like this: Racism in fantasy works --> stereotypes in jokes --> kyriarchy and humour --> are we allowed to be funny ever?
(The answer is of course: No! No humour allowed! What did you think this was, real life or something?)
To make clear whither and whence this post: I have recently seen some icons of Sazh (dark-skinned character from Final Fantasy XIII) that I found objectionable, as did
heebee [here] and renay [here]. The icons can be seen below this cut — I did say they are uncomfortably racist, right?:( The Icons in Question )
I prefer not to name the iconmaker or link to their work, though many folks might recognize hir anyway. Rather, I want to take part in a general fandom discussion of this topic, rather than call out and dogpile a single iconmaker. I'm attempting to engage the iconmaker, not neglecting that part, but I hope to minimize the extent to which zie feels attacked in hir own space. And while I can't really tell anyone what to do, I do ask that please, no one go over there and call hir racist. That is not productive. (If that seemed self-contradictory — hey, this person did something racist and by the way don't tell hir zie's racist — please listen while the ever-awesome Jay Smooth of Ill Doctrine explains.)
If you are confused as to why these icons might be offensive, I recommend taking a look at the collection at the Authentic History Center, as well as some rebuttals of common responses to this imagery.
That said, let's try to get this party started!
Race and Racism in Fantasy Worlds
First up, a common cry: But these are fantasy worlds, they don't have our history of race and race relations there, they might not even have an idea of race! Fantasy depictions — or fanworks based on fantasy depictions — can't be racist!
The simple answer: Okay, I will grant that within a canonical world, by canonical standards, something we might take as racist/sexist/otherwise offensive is not taken as such within the context of that world.
But you know who isn't in the context of that world? You and me, buddy. And the creators of the canon. And pretty much all the consumers of that canon. So while the characters embedded in that world might not be engaging in racism by the rules of their own world, we do not have that excuse.
We who create and consume media, we live in this world, with all its sorry and glorious history. It's possible to go in circles forever around the subject of fantasy depictions and their effect on real-world issues. I would prefer not to go there; I would get dizzy. I hope we can at least agree on this: whatever the creators' intentions and whatever the rules of the fantasy world, we, because we live in our world, are justified in viewing and analyzing the fantasy through the lens of our real-world experience — the experience through which it is created and consumed.
Using Stereotypes in Jokes / Kyriarchy and Humour
Okay, so can we at least poke fun at racist stereotypes and make other plays off prejudice in an ironic way using those fantasy characters (who by the way are imaginary and can't be hurt)?
Yes and no.
The relationship between humour and kyriarchy is... pretty complicated. It's quite easy to fall into a trap here: attempt, with the best intentions, to deride things worthy of derision, and yet in making the joke end up perpetuating those same ills.
Here's the thing — when you make a joke using a stereotype, you're still using that stereotype.
( My complete lack of humour continues! )
( Are We Allowed to be Funny EVER omg )
I know a lot of people try to make lists of acceptable and off-limits topics for humour. I think that's a pretty fraught discussion. Liss made a pretty neat post on off-limits humour, breaking down why certain subjects are more off-limits than others. But she also makes the point that no topic is really off-limits: it's all about context. It's about your audience. It's about thinking hard about how your humour will be received, and by whom. And if necessary, it's about summoning up the creativity to make new jokes, jokes that do not perpetuate the very things we try to fight.
And back we are in a grey area, context context context. But I hope we at least have some more things to think about, and some tools to discuss this disturbing trend in fandom. It's not just a few Sazh icons — it's everywhere, in jokes about female characters, older characters, characters of colour... It's quite saddening. I'd love to discuss how this problem relates to fandom in general, or Final Fantasy fandom in particular, since we have such a fun history (see: Barrret). It's a big issue, with too little tl;dr. Open the deer pens, prepare the aquamarine paint cans! Or, you know, just drop a word or two.
A note on where to comment: I'm posting this from DW to LJ, so it's available on both services. However, I would prefer if people commented in the LJ copy, to make it easier for me to keep track of the discussion. I'm keeping commenting open on both sites, so this is just a request =)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif){kind=small}
